kevyn | When Paganism Ends...

When Paganism Ends...

My deep philosophical question for the season:

Is it possible to be an Atheist (or Agnostic), and be a Pagan at the same time?

I don't have an answer, I'm just mulling it over in my mind. I used to think "yes," and identified as such, but since then I've had Pagan friends I trust and respect tell me I can't be both at the same time.

Sorting out belief...

-Hagrid

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That's dumb.

No, seriously. An atheist doesn't believe in "god" -- which is monotheistic (and seemingly christian) from its onset. Being agnostic means questioning/doubting the existanance of "god" (I guess I should use a capital G, but there I go showing my colors...), again monotheistic and christian.

I hope, from here, how it differs from paganism is a given. Paganism is generally not monotheistic and definately not christian.

I definitely agree with you on the narrow definition of atheists not believing in "no god" and not being Monotheistic, Ergane. Most Pagans I think are atheistic to this degree.

But I think Atheism is broader than that. Typically, Atheists also doubt the existance of supernatural forces in the world, too. Spirits, gods, or even "magick" or energy work.

How does someone who questions the idea of spells, or the efficacy of things like Astronomy or Tarot or Runes or Scrying fit in the neopagan world?

But Hagrid, there is no broader definition unless you mean to say people are so ignorant as to remake the term to fit their own realities.

Atheist means, etymologically, "godless" -- anything else is talking about something else. I understand that words and meanings change, but this broader definition has a word attached to it that is not coming to me right now. But it *isn't* atheist.

Also, I tend to think there isn't a Neo-Pagan world... same word, just Pagan. Perhaps that's me being a touch too postmod, but paganism ain't new.

It all starts with belief, I guess. Either you believe or know or you don't. Perhaps we should continue to dismiss the idea that all things are equal. There are things you can perceive that I cannot and things I can perceive that you cannot and it's all good and doesn't really mean that either is less than the other.

So how do they fit in the neopagan world? Perhaps as those who are watching miracles and can tell others about it. As people who can pass "it" on, as people who can help create tradition, help create something that helps those to come.

What do you think about that?

> ...unless you mean to say people are so ignorant as to remake the term to fit their own realities.

I'm sorry, I need clarification please - do you mean ignorant people remaking the term "atheist?"

> Atheist means, etymologically, "godless" -- anything else is talking about something else. I understand that words and meanings change, but this broader definition has a word attached to it that is not coming to me right now. But it *isn't* atheist.

Rationalist? Materialist? I'm not sure.

Your point about the etymology of the word is well-taken, and on the surface, an excellent point. However, "Atheist" -- which is one of the self-labels I am toying with - has grown to also encompass the idea that "supernatural forces" do not exist. (Which may be what I wasn't understanding about the first sentence I quoted in this point.)

> It all starts with belief, I guess. Either you believe or know or you don't.

I definitely don't KNOW. Believe... there's the rub... what is it I believe and disbelieve? I think a post on this topic alone is needed (an I will make it shortly).

> Perhaps we should continue to dismiss the idea that all things are equal. There are things you can perceive that I cannot and things I can perceive that you cannot and it's all good and doesn't really mean that either is less than the other.
I agree with you wholeheartedly on this point - I do think my perceptions are limited. All human perceptions are both limited -- because we are human -- and different -- because we are diverse.

However, I don't necessarily think all beliefs are equal. For instance, I do think that not believeing in the Christian God is superior to believing in the Cristian God. That's my prejudice, and I own it, because I do think that monotheism is maladaptice for our species.

Let's just throw away equal. Because really... it isn't about "equal," but what we will and will not allow in our circle.

There was an article in The Atlantic that spoke of the idea of a "G-d" as being some rift-raff of debris lingering in our brains, something evolution would eventually take care of -- they put it much better. But I was endlessly tickled over the idea of "G-d" being a sign of dementia. (... well... in a far-flung sense!)

I don't know if I completely agree with the idea that all human perceptions are limited because I cannot know all humans. I would imagine there are humans out there who have evolved perceptions. Perhaps that is because of my own ability to boundary dissolve and understand other people that most cannot. Where I agree with you is where I consider the fact that most people are so married to their ego that they cannot walk away from it, trusting it will be intact when they return after wading in the ego of another.

However, even that is cultural, you know?

>So how do they fit in the neopagan world? Perhaps as those who are watching miracles and can tell others about it. As people who can pass "it" on, as people who can help create tradition, help create something that helps those to com

Well, I'm the one being talked about here, so I will own that -- how do *I* it in the neopagan world, if I am beginnning to question the ideas of the supernatural?

I'm beginning to question the ideas of "miracles" as supernatural events, so I find myself isolated further.

LOL Miracles was just the first word that popped into my head. "Miracles" is subjective -- not objective.

Perhaps that's it... we're talking about all this stuff as if objective when it is not.

What ideas of the supernatural are you questioning?

What kind of paganism are you talking about?

For example, as a kind of pagan (I guess), my practice is not about the supernatural, but the natural world.

And then there was something someone said in response about this being all there is... but that's something that is part of Judiasm. This is heaven; this is hell... make the best and/or worst of it.

I find it miraculous when I am all crazy and out in the would and find myself leaning on a tree and the tree absorbing my crazy energy, grounding me. Yanno?

Also, don't look to isolate yourself either. One doesn't find themselves isolated, but create it. Trust me, I know lots about isolation! *grins*

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