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My deep philosophical question for the season:
Is it possible to be an Atheist (or Agnostic), and be a Pagan at the same time?
I don't have an answer, I'm just mulling it over in my mind. I used to think "yes," and identified as such, but since then I've had Pagan friends I trust and respect tell me I can't be both at the same time.
Sorting out belief...
-Hagrid
Is it possible to be an Atheist (or Agnostic), and be a Pagan at the same time?
I don't have an answer, I'm just mulling it over in my mind. I used to think "yes," and identified as such, but since then I've had Pagan friends I trust and respect tell me I can't be both at the same time.
Sorting out belief...
-Hagrid
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And Paganism is a much broader category than, say, Wicca, where there are a certain base set of beliefs ... I think if the category is big enough for Hellenic reconstructionists and Asatru and New Agers, it's damn well big enough for people who don't follow (or believe in) the god-concept too. There's a lot more to paganism than the name you worship.
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No, seriously. An atheist doesn't believe in "god" -- which is monotheistic (and seemingly christian) from its onset. Being agnostic means questioning/doubting the existanance of "god" (I guess I should use a capital G, but there I go showing my colors...), again monotheistic and christian.
I hope, from here, how it differs from paganism is a given. Paganism is generally not monotheistic and definately not christian.
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But I think Atheism is broader than that. Typically, Atheists also doubt the existance of supernatural forces in the world, too. Spirits, gods, or even "magick" or energy work.
How does someone who questions the idea of spells, or the efficacy of things like Astronomy or Tarot or Runes or Scrying fit in the neopagan world?
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Atheist means, etymologically, "godless" -- anything else is talking about something else. I understand that words and meanings change, but this broader definition has a word attached to it that is not coming to me right now. But it *isn't* atheist.
Also, I tend to think there isn't a Neo-Pagan world... same word, just Pagan. Perhaps that's me being a touch too postmod, but paganism ain't new.
It all starts with belief, I guess. Either you believe or know or you don't. Perhaps we should continue to dismiss the idea that all things are equal. There are things you can perceive that I cannot and things I can perceive that you cannot and it's all good and doesn't really mean that either is less than the other.
So how do they fit in the neopagan world? Perhaps as those who are watching miracles and can tell others about it. As people who can pass "it" on, as people who can help create tradition, help create something that helps those to come.
What do you think about that?
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I'm sorry, I need clarification please - do you mean ignorant people remaking the term "atheist?"
> Atheist means, etymologically, "godless" -- anything else is talking about something else. I understand that words and meanings change, but this broader definition has a word attached to it that is not coming to me right now. But it *isn't* atheist.
Rationalist? Materialist? I'm not sure.
Your point about the etymology of the word is well-taken, and on the surface, an excellent point. However, "Atheist" -- which is one of the self-labels I am toying with - has grown to also encompass the idea that "supernatural forces" do not exist. (Which may be what I wasn't understanding about the first sentence I quoted in this point.)
> It all starts with belief, I guess. Either you believe or know or you don't.
I definitely don't KNOW. Believe... there's the rub... what is it I believe and disbelieve? I think a post on this topic alone is needed (an I will make it shortly).
> Perhaps we should continue to dismiss the idea that all things are equal. There are things you can perceive that I cannot and things I can perceive that you cannot and it's all good and doesn't really mean that either is less than the other.
I agree with you wholeheartedly on this point - I do think my perceptions are limited. All human perceptions are both limited -- because we are human -- and different -- because we are diverse.
However, I don't necessarily think all beliefs are equal. For instance, I do think that not believeing in the Christian God is superior to believing in the Cristian God. That's my prejudice, and I own it, because I do think that monotheism is maladaptice for our species.
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There was an article in The Atlantic that spoke of the idea of a "G-d" as being some rift-raff of debris lingering in our brains, something evolution would eventually take care of -- they put it much better. But I was endlessly tickled over the idea of "G-d" being a sign of dementia. (... well... in a far-flung sense!)
I don't know if I completely agree with the idea that all human perceptions are limited because I cannot know all humans. I would imagine there are humans out there who have evolved perceptions. Perhaps that is because of my own ability to boundary dissolve and understand other people that most cannot. Where I agree with you is where I consider the fact that most people are so married to their ego that they cannot walk away from it, trusting it will be intact when they return after wading in the ego of another.
However, even that is cultural, you know?
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Well, I'm the one being talked about here, so I will own that -- how do *I* it in the neopagan world, if I am beginnning to question the ideas of the supernatural?
I'm beginning to question the ideas of "miracles" as supernatural events, so I find myself isolated further.
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Perhaps that's it... we're talking about all this stuff as if objective when it is not.
What ideas of the supernatural are you questioning?
What kind of paganism are you talking about?
For example, as a kind of pagan (I guess), my practice is not about the supernatural, but the natural world.
And then there was something someone said in response about this being all there is... but that's something that is part of Judiasm. This is heaven; this is hell... make the best and/or worst of it.
I find it miraculous when I am all crazy and out in the would and find myself leaning on a tree and the tree absorbing my crazy energy, grounding me. Yanno?
Also, don't look to isolate yourself either. One doesn't find themselves isolated, but create it. Trust me, I know lots about isolation! *grins*
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An atheist is someone who believes in no higher power (to borrow an AA phrase) at all. They think that when you die, that's it. No afterlife, what you do here doesn't matter on any other plane, etc. An agnostic believes that there is a higher power (maybe), but is withholding judgement on what or who it might be.
Pagans - to me, anyway - don't tend to fall into either category. They believe in multiple, or at least dual, gods and goddesses, the Power of Three is a guiding tenent, etc. I think pagans tend to be MORE spiritual than other religions I've been in contact with, just because they spend so much time thinking about it and how they fit in.
Atheists and Agnostics don't seem to have the same concerns.
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I know a lot of pagans who dont believe in an afterlife, so that's not incompatible with atheistic beliefs. I know I've never particularly believed in a life after death... "Summerlands" was always a metaphor for me, not a real place.
Believing in dual gods and goddesses strikes me as more of a Wiccan idea than necessarily a Pagan one. I've always bellieved - even when working with gods like Pan, or The Lord & Lady, or The Horned One, or Raven, or Bear, or even The Queer God - that I wasn't dealing with "actual" incranate spiritual beings, but rather archetypes, or, as Joseph Campbell put it in "The Power of Myth," masks that The Divine (however you define it) wears... ways we interact with The Universal Mysteries.
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Some views of Paganism are as a religion, others about environmentalism, and still others about a magical context.
It could conflict, but most likely it exists alongside.
Sort of like how Voodooism exists alongside Christian teachings.
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Excellent point. Parallel, not necessarily mutually exclusive belief sets.
I think I've operated in that realm for a long time, especially along the environmental track.
What's stirring me now are the ideas of The New Atheists, like Richard Dawkins, who posit that we live in a purely mateial universe (sure, there's a human need for spirituality, and that's fine) and that supernatural forces do not exist. That's a question I guess I am agnostic on.
Maybe I am more a Cultural Pagan than a Spiritual one?
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The systems work on different levels. (I didn't think to word it that way.)
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When I think of Paganism, I think Earth worship which means it isn't as easily codified... also, I think of it as being feminine-oriented.
Sorry, I am speaking because I don't know if folks understand how certain things exist alongside Christianity... respecting that there is something really horrible that happened and understand how what happened was an act of a people being crafty and smart in order to survive.
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This has parallels in what happened in Pagan Europe, when the pre-Christian religions of Europe were mapped onto early Christianaity. Things like most of the supernatural parts of the Jesus mytology, the celebrations of Christmas and Easter, the Blessed Virgin Mary (a mythology that has played a major role in my life and spirituality), the intercession of saints... all of these were mapped onto the early church, and became ppart of what is now today "Christianity" (and especially Cathoicism.
> Sorry, I am speaking because I don't know if folks understand how certain things exist alongside Christianity... respecting that there is something really horrible that happened and understand how what happened was an act of a people being crafty and smart in order to survive.
You are speaking, of course, about the slave trade and it's impact on the transplanted religions of West Africa, and I think you make a very good point.
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My words were vague and hesitant because I don't really feel like arguing with anyone and sometimes, the way I word things get people all in a wad.
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Remember that not all of the early absorption of Christian belief into european pagan cultures was one way. There are reasons why we still have our rabbits for "Easter", our fir trees for Christmas (Saturnalia), etc. You can readily point out that Christianity made off with previous pagan holidays in order to ease the integration of Christianity. You can also point off that there were pagan elements that just can't be killed and have thus survived Christianity. :-)
Put yet another way, even Christians aren't as close to each other as they'd universally claim. Pick 10 Christians from different parts of the country and ask them to form a Church. The fireworks about what would make them Christian and the foundations of their Church would be quite interesting. :-)
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Also, you should remember that the absorption of early ethnic european traditions were stripped of there meaning (to get a better idea of what I am getting at, either remember or read Jean Baudrillard's (Simulacra and Simulation)... so although it can be traced or argued to a source does not mean it has the same meaning it had or that when people put their rabbits everywhere or hoist their Christmas trees that it has anything to do with those earlier traditions anymore.
I understand that Christains aren't *really* as close as they claim, however, over the last couple of years, I have witnessed how they are able to unite under the aegis of "Christian" when they want or need to. For example, did you know that before the last presidential election, white christians went into the churches of B/black christians (I read about this happening in place like Detroit for example) and asked them to put aside their differences to do the work of god and keep them/us homosexuals from getting married? What someone believes, in a sense, matters less than what someone can do by saying, "If you are, then you will agree...".
Watching their fireworks would be more interesting if it didn't always come at the expense of my freedom.
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But I mean, as an example, an entire sect of Christianity came about because of one guy wanting to divorce and remarry. ;)
So religion is not a rigidly defined thing and tends to be just as fluid, so having two belief systems is not anything to be worried about.
I suspect most of "Christian" America right now feels the same way as very few of them identify as being "the Bible is exact word" types.
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I think part of my questioning comes along the lines of "do supernatural beings/forces exist?"
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Let's say that you firmly believe in the existence of supernatural (in some form) beings. You may include entities that exist and that could be called supernatural in that category even if scientifically you'd arrive at the "they exist in this universe and therefore are included in nature" category. I'll call them supernatural for simplicity's sake.
If you believe they exist, they may (depending on the "they") interact with your spiritual/religious beliefs. At the simplest level, lets say you believe in non-godlike supernatural creatures that you can have congress with. Let's call those daemons (in the greek sense).
Given the presence of something like daemons and given some probably imperfect way of interacting with them, how does this affect your spirituality and religion?
Effectively, this just means you have to figure out to what level of "proof" you want to take this. If you're the "you can't prove this exists, so it does not" type, you're going to require proof. At one extreme, this makes you the kind of atheist that says "God doesn't exist, and you're crazy for believing in one."
The other axis is a spiritual one. People can often have very spiritual lives without the existence of supernatural forces. In many of those cases, simply casting supernatural influence as a metaphor is enough to satisfy their intellectual requirements. This includes the Christians who consider the divinity of Jesus in a metaphorical sense, yet can call themselves Christians because they follow his teachings. The opposite end of that, of course, are the literalists who believe that Jesus did walk on water and turn water to wine rather than just was good at getting around and had good cooking skills. :-)
Personally, I'm of the opinion that supernatural beings, potentially up to a "creator" may exist. I've had direct spiritual/supernatural experiences that would lead me to believe such things. However, those experiences were not externally verifiable. I couldn't, from an intellectual point of view, argue that my experiences were anything other than an internal reality. The consequence of that is that I am a spiritual person, would likely believe and listen to others talk about their experiences and not immediately discount them. I would not put a lot of effort into arguing with someone who didn't believe me. I can potentially be argued into accepting that my experiences were "delusions". The human brain, after all, is susceptible to a lot of that sort of thing.
To your original question, you could be a pagan and believe either literally or metaphorically in supernatural entities. You're guaranteed to run into conflict based on your literal or metaphorical interpretation, but that's guaranteed.
Extra credit: Consider the song by Yellow called Domingo as an example of where this could go.
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Extra credit: Consider the song by Yellow called Domingo
We are God? Reincarnation?
The lyrics are kind of opaque.
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Re: Extra credit: Consider the song by Yellow called Domingo
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Re: Extra credit: Consider the song by Yellow called Domingo
It's still pretty opaque.
What, exactly is the song advocating? Rationalism? Reincarnation? Satanism? They lyric sheet you sent me the link to, interestingly enough, excludes the French lyrics which appear in the song:
This tarnslates roughly to:
What is that all about? Is the singer saying that God and His Son don't exist? Or that they do exist and the singer hates them? Or that the creation of these Gods were somehow "Satanic" (diabolical)?
And who the heck is Domingo de Santa Clara, anyway? Probably not a real person - Google finds no one by that name. Nor does Wikipedia. Is he a metaphor for something or someone?
The Spanish construction of the name suggests Domingo is from Santa Clara - Wikipedia says there are 14 signifcant places called Santa Clara on the planet. The best-known is Santa Clara, California, which is the heart of Silicon Valley, and the epicentre of the Computer Revolution. Is that where Domingo is from? His name, in Spanish, means "Sunday." How is that significant?
Like I said, opaque.
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Re: Extra credit: Consider the song by Yellow called Domingo
We are here
In this holy cave today
To celebrate
The reincarnation
Of domingo de santa clara
The man who convinced us
That there is no lord
For his name is buddha, allah, shiva, jahve [yahweh? ]
Outside our bodies
We are god
’cause only we can create the idea
Of his existence in our holy brains
This is the core, especially in the context of the original discussion about whether or not you can be an atheist/agnostic and yet pagan. In the song, the "preacher" tells us that we may be both atheist (there *is no god*) and yet have a spiritual life because we are the only ones capable of creating the idea of god. Alternatively, we *are* god. Those ideas show up in a number of pagan belief systems. In fiction, the idea circulates in a lot of Neal Gaiman's works where the gods and men have a symbiotic relationship - we created the gods and yet they depend on us. The ability for mortals to transcend mortality and become a god is also present in a number of earlier belief systems. These days, many pagans tend to regard death as a return to a state closer to god/goddess. To whit, a popular pagan song:
"We all come from the goddess
and to her we shall return
like a drop of rain."
I hate the idea of God and His son.
It's one of the most diabolical ideas
In the whole history of mankind
The fact that this was in French throws me a bit of dissonance since Domingo of Santa Clara sounds very much like a Spanish/Mexican name. I suspect the verse was included in French since it matched something that seems to show up in a lot of European techno, especially at that time - the narrative will shift languages.
In the context of the song, I've chosen to interpret it as Domingo, who believes that we are all god (and yet there is no external god) hates the ideas of the catholic church where not only is god external, but the only means to salvation.
Domingo you show me just nothing
Like no one before
Domingo of santa clara
You made us believe
That you are no phantom
When without
"You show me just nothing like no one before" - The beliefs advocated wash away the need to believe not only in the god without but also that there *is* no god. The "nothing" that is being shown is that there is no god. The "reincarnation" of Domingo seems to be that since we *are* god that god survives as long as we survive, yet "you are no phantom when without" there is no external god.
Billions of times
’til the end of the universe
Here with a smile on his face
As the rest of our species watches
The catastrophe
god ends when we do.
I don't think Domingo is a real person.
In any case, I treat the song as a exultation of atheism with spirituality. I don't necessarily expect you to get the same out of it, but the lyrics are confusing enough to at least let you think about it. :-)
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Excellent point.
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