When Paganism Ends...

[kevyn]

My deep philosophical question for the season:

Is it possible to be an Atheist (or Agnostic), and be a Pagan at the same time?

I don't have an answer, I'm just mulling it over in my mind. I used to think "yes," and identified as such, but since then I've had Pagan friends I trust and respect tell me I can't be both at the same time.

Sorting out belief...

-Hagrid

Comments

[cubziz.livejournal.com]

I would say that it isn't a problem. However, it depends on what type of "Pagan" you are.

Some views of Paganism are as a religion, others about environmentalism, and still others about a magical context.

It could conflict, but most likely it exists alongside.

Sort of like how Voodooism exists alongside Christian teachings.

[kevynjacobs.livejournal.com]

> Sort of like how Voodooism exists alongside Christian teachings.

Excellent point. Parallel, not necessarily mutually exclusive belief sets.

I think I've operated in that realm for a long time, especially along the environmental track.

What's stirring me now are the ideas of The New Atheists, like Richard Dawkins, who posit that we live in a purely mateial universe (sure, there's a human need for spirituality, and that's fine) and that supernatural forces do not exist. That's a question I guess I am agnostic on.

Maybe I am more a Cultural Pagan than a Spiritual one?

[cubziz.livejournal.com]

I admit, I'm not TOO familiar with many of the concepts in Paganism. I admit that as far as belief systems go, I believe the Native American is the one which I most closely relate to, which is probably the closest to many of the Pagan beliefs (particularly in the Mother Earth viewpoint).

The systems work on different levels. (I didn't think to word it that way.)

[kyooverse.livejournal.com]

... but voudon exists alongside Christianity as a means of a subjugated people "mapping" their religion onto the religion/god they were allowed/made/forced to worship.

When I think of Paganism, I think Earth worship which means it isn't as easily codified... also, I think of it as being feminine-oriented.

Sorry, I am speaking because I don't know if folks understand how certain things exist alongside Christianity... respecting that there is something really horrible that happened and understand how what happened was an act of a people being crafty and smart in order to survive.

[kevynjacobs.livejournal.com]

> ... but voudon exists alongside Christianity as a means of a subjugated people "mapping" their religion onto the religion/god they were allowed/made/forced to worship

This has parallels in what happened in Pagan Europe, when the pre-Christian religions of Europe were mapped onto early Christianaity. Things like most of the supernatural parts of the Jesus mytology, the celebrations of Christmas and Easter, the Blessed Virgin Mary (a mythology that has played a major role in my life and spirituality), the intercession of saints... all of these were mapped onto the early church, and became ppart of what is now today "Christianity" (and especially Cathoicism.

> Sorry, I am speaking because I don't know if folks understand how certain things exist alongside Christianity... respecting that there is something really horrible that happened and understand how what happened was an act of a people being crafty and smart in order to survive.

You are speaking, of course, about the slave trade and it's impact on the transplanted religions of West Africa, and I think you make a very good point.

[kyooverse.livejournal.com]

Not just the religions of West Africa, but also the religions of the Aztecs (re: Catholicism), and even ethnic Europeans, like Celts, who worshipped goddesses.

My words were vague and hesitant because I don't really feel like arguing with anyone and sometimes, the way I word things get people all in a wad.

[kevynjacobs.livejournal.com]

Am I being argumentative? Ah. I'm sorry.

[kyooverse.livejournal.com]

No... something else... yer fine.

[backrubbear.livejournal.com]

Human belief and understanding is the ultimate parasite or symbiote. Regardless of how we came to assimilate something, it often becomes *ours*.

Remember that not all of the early absorption of Christian belief into european pagan cultures was one way. There are reasons why we still have our rabbits for "Easter", our fir trees for Christmas (Saturnalia), etc. You can readily point out that Christianity made off with previous pagan holidays in order to ease the integration of Christianity. You can also point off that there were pagan elements that just can't be killed and have thus survived Christianity. :-)

Put yet another way, even Christians aren't as close to each other as they'd universally claim. Pick 10 Christians from different parts of the country and ask them to form a Church. The fireworks about what would make them Christian and the foundations of their Church would be quite interesting. :-)

[kyooverse.livejournal.com]

Oh, we could argue that point... whether something assimilated -- and let's not forget that "assimilated" in this case does not really get across the horror of subjugating one man's belief system upon another -- belongs to the Self. Because there are a lot of scholars out there who beg to differ. What you are saying is convinent to the "winners," but it leaves a lot out.

Also, you should remember that the absorption of early ethnic european traditions were stripped of there meaning (to get a better idea of what I am getting at, either remember or read Jean Baudrillard's (Simulacra and Simulation)... so although it can be traced or argued to a source does not mean it has the same meaning it had or that when people put their rabbits everywhere or hoist their Christmas trees that it has anything to do with those earlier traditions anymore.

I understand that Christains aren't *really* as close as they claim, however, over the last couple of years, I have witnessed how they are able to unite under the aegis of "Christian" when they want or need to. For example, did you know that before the last presidential election, white christians went into the churches of B/black christians (I read about this happening in place like Detroit for example) and asked them to put aside their differences to do the work of god and keep them/us homosexuals from getting married? What someone believes, in a sense, matters less than what someone can do by saying, "If you are, then you will agree...".

Watching their fireworks would be more interesting if it didn't always come at the expense of my freedom.

[cubziz.livejournal.com]

And true. But religions evolve just as everything else does (despite what some religions say about evolution *giggle*) and while it was used to subjugate an entire group of people, it has grown into a completely self-sustaining unit since. Hence why I was using it as the example. I was not trying to ignore the roots, was just speaking more about the current usage/combination.

But I mean, as an example, an entire sect of Christianity came about because of one guy wanting to divorce and remarry. ;)

So religion is not a rigidly defined thing and tends to be just as fluid, so having two belief systems is not anything to be worried about.

I suspect most of "Christian" America right now feels the same way as very few of them identify as being "the Bible is exact word" types.